Sunday, 27 September 2009 08:02
Some are going to say there is too much emphasis put on formation and some are going to say that it was only one match. In response I'm going to say right off the bat that formation is very important and had Manchester United lost one more match last season and had Liverpool won one more match, Liverpool would be the current Champions. Just one more match?
You might also think, by the time you finish this post, that I'm getting overly frustrated, but Martin O'Neill got it so wrong yesterday and I don't care how he reacts to this, but how many times is he going to be able to get it wrong?
I'm not turning on O'Neill but when the team was announced yesterday, there was almost an acceptance that we could lose and while you'll think I'm just being melodramatic, it's about what you want for your club and if you are part of the tribe that have bought into the PR and spin from the club, then you'll be happy because we are seventh, but if you hold the club higher or you remember football from before the Premier League, you'll want more.
Before we get to the papers, I just want to leave you with this; Liverpool play 4-5-1 home and away and that flippant remark in the previous paragraph was meant to be flippant but not meant to offend anyone, but it can happen if we want it, it's just about do we accept what we've got?
What The Papers Say
News of the World
The real sting for Aston Villa was that they could not even manage a point against a struggling side who finished a man short; that the real heart was in Big Sam's side.
guardian.co.uk
Rovers deservedly levelled midway through the first period with the first Premier League goal Villa have shipped in more than a month. Chris Samba, loitering at a partially cleared corner, outmuscled Richard Dunne in a heavyweight battle in the box to sweep home Ryan Nelsen's hopeful punt. Villa's manager, Martin O'Neill, who preferred the teenage talents of Fabian Delph to those of Nigel Reo-Coker in midfield, will no doubt concede it was not the first time they had looked uneasy when asked to deal with an aerial assault.
The Manager
Martin O'Neill
We were hoping to get something. Up until today we were perfect away from home. We were looking to continue in the same vein, but games here aren't easy. We are away from home and we have to deal with balls put into the penalty area. For the most part I thought we dealt with it and I thought we should've got something from the game.
The Players
Brad Friedel, Carlos Cuellar, James Collins, Stephen Warnock, Richard Dunne, Ashley Young, Fabian Delph (Emile Heskey, 57), James Milner, Stiliyan Petrov, John Carew, Gabriel Agbonlahor.
Some Stats
We had eight shots in ninety minutes and four of those were on target. Four shots on target in 90 minutes. I don't think we are going to score more than one or two with those numbers and we actually don't. We also made 267 passes of which 201 were successful and 66 failed.
Look back to Fulham and we had 375 passes and 307 were successful. That is why we beat Fulham and why we lost to Blackburn. Playing 451 means you pass the ball more, which means you keep the ball more, which means, if you have the ball, the other team doesn't and if they don't have it, they can't score. It is simple and I'm making it simple for a reason.
Man of the Match
I forgot to put this up yesterday, so I'm giving it to Gabby, just because he scored. It will be back for next week.
Final Analysis
Bottom line, it was only one match, but it was a match we should have won. It was only three points but had we picked up three points yesterday and we win our game in hand we would be joint top. As it stands now, if we win our game in hand we are not even in the top four, not unless we win by four clear goals.
O'Neill made another mistake yesterday and as a supporter I have a right to be upset and I have a right to be frustrated. I also have a right to moan about picking a formation that doesn't work and I have a right to request he picks 451, because it works for us and it is about formation and if he can't get his head around this, then I don't care if he walks and I don't care if he is pushed, something Lerner will do.
Basically, we are not playing football in the 70's. Things have moved on and Martin O'Neill is no Brian Clough. He has to get away from that and he has to focus on the things that make us win and I'm sorry to say it, but I want more than top six for my club.
Yesterday was very important and it isn't just because we lost it was the way that we lost. The football was average, the fight was nowhere and not playing Nigel Reo-Coker was another mistake by O'Neill and one I think he made just because he could and for personal reasons, not for the benefit of the club and basically, as the custodian of our club, he has to work in the best interests of the club, not for personal gain.
So, that is over and to use a Martin O'Neillism, it will be forgotten tomorrow. Today, I'm going to read the papers, eat a big breakfast, cut the grass and try to forget about the football from yesterday.
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mrsencie
said:
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... this is going to be a very long season.... due to manager tactics and lack of goal scorers.... 10th if lucky |
kaptabs
said:
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... Damian, I fully agree with your whole article, more often than not this is the case anywhow. The only thing i don't agree with, and i fins this worrying, is I don't think Lerner will push O'Neill. It will take MON deciding to walk if he would prefer not to let his ego get the better of him imo. In the USA Lerner is known as a raskmaster, albeit a quiet one. He will make big decisions and changes. Over here i have a worrying feeling that Lerner truly believes that MON knows best and does not know enough abput the game to be asking the questions that we do week in week out. (Although he might be starting to have a little think about it). I loved that we had attracted MON, although he knew Lerner was coming imo, but the longer this circus goes on the more depressing it is becoming. And here is the real cracker. Not only does his ego not allow an attempt at 4-5-1 for a consistent period of games just to see..... Mot only does he let his ego rule his decisions, All of this is deflecting away6 from the fact that he has spent MILLIONS and only 3 players, at a strecth have caught my eye. Everyone seems to be forgetting that. I acrually have had a think about this over night and i don't think he is limited. I just think he is pigheaded and would rather have his controversy than really do whats right for the team. It seems our egomaniac no longer roams the board room (Mr Ellis), he roams the touchline, so what exactly have we won except a LOT of WASTED money??? |
sam
said:
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... Like i said yesterday we could still be playing now and still not score. Apart from our early goal we created nothing and was second best to everything. Carew was useless and Reo Coker should have started. I knew it would'nt be too long before Dunne started his crazy mistakes, in my opinion he was at fault for the first goal too. Blackburn could have won by more if it was'nt for some desperate defending and a point blank save from Friedel. |
kaptabs
said:
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...this is going to be a very long season.... due to manager tactics and lack of goal scorers.... I think we will finish higher than that, thats not really my concern....BUT look at the table. Harry Redknapp, as much as most fans hate him, is a damn good manager who makes damn good signings. There is no legislation for Man City so I'll leave that one. But we finished sixth last season, I think we have a better team than Everton and have pushed on but due to the above i think Tottenham have pushed us a run down and Man city...... 7th, nailed on, and its a shame because of MON didn't have his stupid ego problems we had the opportunity for 5th at least. The other thing people have forgotten is that Manager Vs Player fights DON'T happen to the extent they did with Coker and MON. Even the players know what we know. Fact is MON played 4-5-1 last season because he had to as JC was in the dog house and injured, Whilst the lazy one and Heskey are fit, 4-5-1 is out the window which means results like yesterday, whilst completely aboidable, will be a factor this season and for the duration whilst O'Neill is in charge. Remember only a few weeks ago MON told us to forget formations which was his way of saying, I don't care what works I'm gonna do what I want until it works or until someone tells me I can't. I just can't see anyone doing that, except us fans of course, and we dont matter because we are a;; (His words) "Championship Manager" experts. |
Rattus NorVillicus
said:
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... It was clear when the team was announced that we were either a) supremely confident that Blackburn had nothing to hurt us, or b) the formation and personel were a mistake and we would be overun in midfield. as it turned out, b) was obvious after 15 minutes. Carew was a passenger, Milner was playing crap, and Delph is neither old enough or experienced enough to play in a four man midfield with Petrov away from home at Blackburn. Any sane manager who wasn't baring a grudge would have taken off Carew and Delph and brought on Coker and Gardiner. Gone 4-5-1, protected the lead, and tried to get some control of the game by controling the midfield. What does MON do ? Brings on Heskey - a move that no-one on the planet bar O'Niell, The Ancient Mariner, thought would do anything other than help us lose the game. So big up Mr MON and tell us the truth. If you're not going to play Coker just tell us you want rid. Don't further punish the man by having him sit on the bench watching Heskey brought on. |
pete
said:
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... imagine the pressure on delph being picked ahead of reo and gardner,and im begining to think mon thinks hes bigger than the club and the fans.i support the villa not mon. |
Mark Winslow
said:
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... It is fairly obvious that 4-5-1 is the best formation. It good enough for Liverpool and Man United all last season home. There is no coincidence between our form away first half of last season and the second half where we bought Heskey abd went to 4-4-2. The second point is Heskey. It is completely obvious to every Aston Villa fan that he offers nothing to the team. He works for England because England have the strength in Midfield to control the game. We need to either get some better techinical players in the centre of midfield who can keep possession or we need to play 3 in the middle. The reason he keeps playing 4-4-2 is he thinks there are not enough goals in the team. Playing 4-5-1 is fine is you have Gerrard, Ronaldo, Lampard or Rooney in midfield. Perhaps he has a point here. Milner likes to shoot but can't really score. Young threatens but again is not dangerous enough. Petrov/Sidwell/Neo-Coker not many goals there. If we are going to play 4-5-1 (and we have to) we need a good attacking central midfielder who can score goals and a second forward who is strong and can score goals who can alternate with Gabby upfront. I think wants going to happen though is, when downing is back, he will play young in the middle behind gabby, which may work. time will tell. |
James Clift
said:
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... No10, I've always sat on the fence when it comes to any debate regarding O'neill, however after reading your comments I'm jumping off it. Can you back up your claims that if Lerner knew anything about football he would be gone by now? Before yesterday O'neill had guided us to our best league start in years. In the last 2 seasons we have qualified for Europe and with a bigger squad we would be playing CL football this year. Anyone can spout off and blame O'neill for not buying enough players or enough quality but that has to be down to the board not providing the relevent funds, wouldn't you agree? All managers make mistakes and O'neill's no different. If we'd gone 4-5-1 yesterday we might have won but we'll never know. If that cost us 3 points then it was a mistake but it hardly qualifies for the cry's of 'MON OUT' I hope I've not made your blood boil but I'm defending O'neill. We'll go and beat Man City next week and you'll be running round telling everyone how the great O'neill masterminded it. |
Alistair
said:
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... I think it is dangerous putting too much emphasis on formation for the reason we lost. We lost because they wanted it more than we did. I do think we should play 4-5-1 away from home but I still think we would have lost yesterday even if we had. Not playing Reo-coker and bringing on Heskey for Delph were both big mistakes by MON. Lets hope he learns from them.Dunne was not good yesterday - perhaps Collins-Cuellar would be a better partnership. That aside. It is just one game. Still a good start overall. Too many fans on here are seriously bi-polar. We all need to keep our feet on the ground after 4 straight wins and equally don't plunge into the depths of despair after just one loss.  |
Chinavillan
said:
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... I listened to Jack Woodward and his guests commentrary from the website,and in the second half both were critical of the lack of effort put in by the villa team...Both agreed that both Carew and Heskey,when he went on,did nothing whatsoever during the game!!!...When Blackburn went down to 10 men,they continued their attacking mode,and went on to win the match!!!....The manager certainly got it wrong yesterday!!!!!!!!Where was Rio Coker?...On the Bloody bench!!!  |
kaptabs
said:
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...If we are going to play 4-5-1 (and we have to) we need a good attacking central midfielder who can score goals and a second forward who is strong and can score goals who can alternate with Gabby upfront. Mark i disagree here. Gabby is proving consistently he can score goals and we keep being told by EVERYONE how good Delfoneuso is. I don't care if a few of Gabbys goals have come from Carew flick ons recently, he is a lazy liability and i also don't care how many people accost me for that. Habby played AWESOME in 4-5-1 last season even with the midfielders we had. We won games, someyimes luckliy, but as the old addage goes, "You make your own luck". If it were me, both Carew and Heskey are expendable. The money would be used for another striker with pace so he can play in 4-5-1, OR MON is going to have to get a midfielder classed as CREATIVE midfielder and play games through him in a 4-4-2. Frankly we also all keep forgetting about Downing. Where the hell does he fit into a 4-4-2. MON has got this all mixed up if you ask me. If Heskey offers nothing (talk about obvious statement of tghe decade), and Carew continues to be the laziest footballer in the premiership, i woul drop them both and forget about them. Play 4-5-1, use Downing in midfield if you really are going to let your ego screw Reo Coker, and buy to suit in January. Otherwise, playing 4-4-2, we will be aout of even talking contention come January and i envisage signs in the Holte to the tune of "MON, We're Not Fickle, You Just Think You are Bigger than The Club" |
benavfc
said:
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... People realy need to get off MON`s back. If we had won yesterday it would have been our best start to a season in over a decade. Im sure that alone allows him to make the odd mistake. Lets be honest we can keep blaming formation but if we had played with no goalkeeper, the players we had on the pitch should have still been good enough to beat a struggling blackburn. I think a bigger question that needs to be asked and that is, at this present time is Fabian Delph even a premier league player let alone a villa player? |
Dave
said:
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... Villa have not been playing well (with the exception of liverpool) all season. Whilst not particularly happy with the performances as long as the results were coming in it was happy days. It is, after all it’s the points that count. The biggest disappointment is I actually thought we would start playing a bit better but keep the winning streak. Evidentially we did neither. If spurs hadn't had banged in 5, and if Liverpool hadn't paraded the class of Torres I think the defeat yesterday would not have been such a bitter pill to swallow. Can’t help feeling we’re being left behind i think it might be a bit pessimistic to want MON out, The 'big' teams are dropping points too., and let’s not get too hasty and fire up the boo boys….. It was good to see Delph play, but he just looked nervous and seemed to just want to get rid of the ball. This will change as he gets older, so MON should have detected his nerves and started him on the bench behind NRC, and maybe replaced Carew after the goal. Why don't the team seem motivated anymore???? |
Giles Young
said:
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... Hello all ... Long time reader, first time blogger. We,ve had a stinker yesterday off the back of 6 consecutive ... It's disappointing. The way we lost is disappointing, and despite that it is a game that we should win ... I am of the opinion that there are no easy games in this league for any team. (Chelsea had a howler!)  I am reading how some are saying that MON's design's maybe stronger for himself than that of the Villa and that some may be happy to see him go? Some to the extent that their blood is boiling should anyone suggest the ridiculous, and say that MON is a good manager. I am genuinely curious, at this point, if MON were to go, who would you like to replace him? Who do you think we could get to replace him? |
Damian
said:
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... Gilo Pay me £350,000 and I'll produce a list of five managers to replace O'Neill with and a breakdown of what it would take to get them. benavfc the thing that is quite frustrating is when the teams were announced quite a few predicted a loss. also - why was reo-coker not playing? has delph suddenly become a better player than him because of the falling out? simple answer is no he hasn't - that was o'neill pubishing reo-coker when what he shoudl have been doing was in the best interests of aston villa football club, not himself |
Rattus NorVillicus
said:
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...I am genuinely curious, at this point, if MON were to go, who would you like to replace him? Why do people bother with this old chestnut time after time ? Your are not "genuinely curious" and you know it ! There are any number of managers who could replace O'Niell - and you know that too. |
bass
said:
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... i find it so hard to watch villa now!!! does anyone remember when we were playing like spurs? quick passing football always scoring 2,3,4 goals a game from milner, young, gabby, carew. now we have stood still, sold players and not replaced them, it used to be sid that if barry didn't play well neither did villa....nothing has changed except he is not here any more and i now we have won a few but we haven't played well once!!! you will all slate me for this but i still think gabby is 2nd rate! he would not get in any of the top 5 teams and he is the best we got, he gets the odd lucky goal but torres looked dangerous every time he got the ball, keane was running in behind the back 4 we just done have that! its going to be a long season and for those of you that cant see it and go with the 'it is only one game' speak to me after the city and chelsea game coz then it will only be 3 games!!! and just as an after thought i read the post yesterday about the betting on villa at really good odds, i am glad i thought for myself and looked at the fact that sooner or later out LUCK was going to run dry and i did blackburn to win or draw with 3 or more goals to be scored at 12/5, now of course i would have been glad if i had lost my money but the £70 takes a little of the pain away!!!! |
Mike Carter
said:
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... MON will learn from this, he absolutely has to. The last time we played with these same 4 midfielders, we were beaten embarassingly by Wigan. Perhaps he thought something was different this time around, but it clearly wasn't. I'm certain he won't be in a rush to make this mistake a 3rd time. |
Eoin Greene
said:
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... Personally I think there is a time and place for both the 4-5-1 and 4-4-2 formations. But... There is a very vociferous large percentage of villa fans on the blog who believe we should ALWAYS play 4-5-1, and there is a very large percentage of people on here who think that MoN is the best thing since sliced bread. So I ask - how can this possibly be? Why are the people who are ALWAYS strenuously preaching the virtues of 4-5-1 not marching around Villa Park with placards demanding that MoN be fired? To explain the logic behind the previous question, I will just summarise what the 4-5-1 supporters continually use for reasons to explain why 4-5-1 is unbeatable:- * Last season we challenged the top 4, up until February at any rate, playing 4-5-1(always). The main reason this changed, and we started loosing was a change to the dreaded 4-4-2 formation. * Even his season, whenever we win its because of 4-5-1(even in matches where we change to 4-4-2 to get a winner). We lost twice, both occasions with a 4-4-2 formation and in both cases we would have won if we had been playing 4-5-1. * Playing with 5 in the middle makes us more solid in midfield * It helps us to be more defensibly stable and harder to break down * It makes Petrov, Sidwell and Reo-Coker play better because they have an extra man in midfield * 5 in midfield will always overrun a 4 man midfield * Having 5 in midfield makes us keep posession better and resort to long hoofs less regularly. * 4-5-1 is actually 4-3-3 in attack, which is a great one. An extra striker when in posession and an extra midfielder when we dont have possession. Sounds too good to be true! When I read this one - I continually think - 'shouldn't every team on the planet use this formation'. Its like a way of legally having 13 men on the pitch. I think we should call it the 4-5-3 from now on. * Man Utd, Arsenal, Spurs, and Chelsea don't play 4 in midfield because Rooney, Van Persie, Keane and I assume its Anelka are midfielders. Now considering all the above, which are continually presented more or less as facts by 90% of people on the blog. Why are those 90% of people not screaming from the rooftops for MoN to be sacked? Surely any reasonable man, with an IQ greater than that of a digestive biscuit can see - given the facts presented above that we should play 4-5-1 ALL THE TIME. Again, considering these facts - how can a footballing man with the experience and reputation of MoN not see this himself? The same arguments have been posted since January now - so again how can 90% of villa fans see this and MoN and his coaching staff cannot. I put it to you 90% - considering your avid support of the 4-5-1 formation - that MoN should be fired!! I also put it to you that every single manager in the world who does not use 4-5-1 should be fired immediately. |
Mike Carter
said:
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... I'll summarise it as quickly as I can Eoin, because for the most part you've rambled and repeated yourself far too much. O'Neill is a good manager, and most of us want Villa to succeed with him at the helm. Not that complicated is it? Not every team plays 4-5-1 because not every team has the personnel that suits it. Of the big 4, only Chelsea play 4-4-2 and even then it's an unorthodox version of it. |
pete
said:
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... Jimbo Daventry Villa ... No10, I've always sat on the fence when it comes to any debate regarding O'neill, however after reading your comments I'm jumping off it. Can you back up your claims that if Lerner knew anything about football he would be gone by now? Before yesterday O'neill had guided us to our best league start in years. In the last 2 seasons we have qualified for Europe and with a bigger squad we would be playing CL football this year. Anyone can spout off and blame O'neill for not buying enough players or enough quality but that has to be down to the board not providing the relevent funds, wouldn't you agree? All managers make mistakes and O'neill's no different. If we'd gone 4-5-1 yesterday we might have won but we'll never know. If that cost us 3 points then it was a mistake but it hardly qualifies for the cry's of 'MON OUT' I hope I've not made your blood boil but I'm defending O'neill. We'll go and beat Man City next week and you'll be running round telling everyone how the great O'neill masterminded it. you put a smile on my face |
Mark Winslow
said:
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... "Mark i disagree here. Gabby is proving consistently he can score goals and we keep being told by EVERYONE how good Delfoneuso is. I don't care if a few of Gabbys goals have come from Carew flick ons recently, he is a lazy liability and i also don't care how many people accost me for that. " Kaptabs - You are missing my point I think. We actually are agreeing. Gabby is good enough to play upfront on his own. He is strong can hold-up the ball if he needs to and can score goals. But we need a second player to do the same. My point was Gabby will get tired, go off form and possibily injured so we need a back-up. Maybe dropping JC will show him he has to work hard if we wants to play for us. Yes sell Heskey and possibly Carew and bring in a decent forward so we have two decent forards who can be rotated. Relying on JC/Heskey of Delfoneuso to come on and score goals when gabby is not fit is not good. |
kaptabs
said:
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... Why does everyone think MON is untouchable just because he is....well M O'Neill. To my recollection he has won the league cup (Its a cup competition guys, Millwall got to the FA cup final a few years ago FFS), and did well with one of only TWO good teams in Scotland. Sorry but the CV is reasonable but nothing special. I think his intelligence keeps people revering him. That is all. His signings, maybe three apart, have been AWFUL. He is slow to act, his substitutions are mind boggling and his ego gets in the way of the obvious for the club. Managers come and go, and yes he has don reasonably well since being here, but the above just disolve the illusion of MON for me. We have some decent players, we even have a formation that we KNOW will at least challenge for a result even if we dont look too attractive when we use it, but i honestly think MON's time is coming to a close. As for a new manager if it came to it, chosen correctly there are people whi could do a much better than MON and don't believe any different. Look at what Capello has done for England. Look at what Wenger has done for Arsenal with NO MONEY. I think the players have had enough of MON and as we all know when that happens, players stop putting in 100% and frankly i would happily let the egomaniac waddle off now for some fresh impetus. I have had enough. And for those spouting off about "Could have been our best start for 87 years" etc, against who we were playing i expected it frankly, But lets not kid ourselves. We looked awful against Cardiff and if technology was being used in the game we wouldn't have even won the game for goodness sake. |
Giles Young
said:
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... Sorry Damian ... Don't have that kind of cash! I have to get the fence done ... Pancho Villan .. I am seriously genuine, if someone can give some names off the top of their head, I think it would be an interesting debate. I am struggling to think of managers that would be better and at the same time attracted to the job. I was pleasantly shocked at the time MON took the job. You may say that this is the old chesnut, but I keep hearing calls for his head with no suggestions of a replacement ... So I'm just trying to figure that out ... At the end of the day, if we could name a manager that could place us in contention to win us the premier league, champions league etc...with our current resources ... I'd be all ears ... |
kaptabs
said:
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...MON will learn from this, he absolutely has to. The last time we played with these same 4 midfielders, we were beaten embarassingly by Wigan. Perhaps he thought something was different this time around, but it clearly wasn't. Please, No offence, but MON makes the SAME mistakes ALL of the time. He has been making one in particular since January 2009 now. I Like your optimism but flawed logic im afraid. |
kaptabs
said:
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...Kaptabs - You are missing my point I think. We actually are agreeing. Sorry, agreed. We were agreeing, i thought you were making a case for the opposite |
Eoin Greene
said:
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... Viva - apologies for rambling. But I think my point is how can anyone possiblyconsider MoN a good manager if he doesn't use 4-5-1, given all the described 'facts'. Another point would be the stats in Damians article regarding passes and stats are pretty clearcut. Another stat would be from our best win this season at Anfield. We played 4-5-1, naturally, had 7 shots on target and 32% posession. I cant find the 'total successful passes' number - but i reckon we probably made three digits. |
b.mac.c@hotmail.co.uk
said:
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... Come on, name a manager who would cone to villa who is better than Martin O'neill. It's a simple question ?? |
Simon
said:
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... Listen to you lot, I know MON got it wrong yesterday and i for one was gutted when Heskey and not NRC came on for Delph, but we still have the best defensive record in the prem, have had the best start in ten years and we havent even got going yet. We have a couple of tough games coming up so lets get behind the team and stop all this negativity. |
Damian
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... b.mac.c@hotmail.co.uk that is the thing, it's not a simple question how do you know what would entice a manager to leave his club, where you have to fancy he is doing well, to a club that none of us know what funds are available and none of us know the real ambition of the reason i say above is pay me the money and i will tell you, is becasue it is something that would need a great deal of work and it will take a lot of time and would cost money and that is just to get the list ready |
Giles Young
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... Agree with benavfc and Stevo Cheers no10, at least it's a start. I would have to say my gut feeling is that Big Sam would not be able to anymore than MON has done at Villa, but I'm going to have to look at some stats to back it up ... Keep those suggestions coming ....  |
kaptabs
said:
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... Bernd Schuster I don't think he is retired, has a FANTASTIC record and takes no crap. That would be my choice and i don't believe he is employed. I'm just sayin..... |
VillaNick
said:
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... I could see he got it wrong just before kick off. MON seems to have fixations with players, at the moment its Heskey and Delph in particular. Delph needs to be eased into it, into a 3 man midfield, not when we play 4-4-2, a mistake made against Wigan, similar result. Plying to our strangths has been something the manager has been good with up-til-now! He is just waiting for Heskey to score a couple and then turn to camera and say "see i was right". I just hope we don't lose too many before that happens. It's just bloody minded & pig headed-ness. |
Steve
said:
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... Yes we lost bcos MoN is big headed, but for me the real reason is Mark Lawrenson - mark stop predicting villa wins. |
joevilla
said:
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... Christ, 2 losses, sack MON, terrible start, errrrrrrrrrr - originally I thought this was a great forum but man it is sooo negative, would be lovely to challenge for the top but we don't have any right at this moment to demand that, neither do Liverpool and they've got Torres!! Came away from yesterday really down but it is just one result, leave the knives out till March at least, please!!!!!! |
Adrian Kilgallon
said:
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... Gilo : Guss Hiddink Slavan Bilic Roberto Mancini Sven Erikson Basically anyone who is not stuck in a time warp and will start to bring good passing football and will immediately stop buying over priced over hyped British rubbish. Honestly i just can't understand how more cannot yet see how overrated MON is and how limited he is in todays football world. |
Gary
said:
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... Gilo I would like to offer up Martin Jol for consideration. I am not necessarily calling for MONs head right now but my patience (with his style of play and thinking in relation to NRC and Heskey) is just about anorexic. |
Giles Young
said:
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... Damian - the answer is resources. Making offers that can't be refused will get your top quality manager. Assuring them full empowerment to do their job will also be majorly enticing. I'm not sure we have the first of those 2 options within our resources. I think for these reasons MON may not be too bad an ROI when we take everything into account at the moment. He is going to make mistakes and we are going to pull our hair out sometimes but he has made some great decisions too and provided YOY consistency which I'm relieved about. This year is an important one for him and I hope he and the team nails it! |
VillaNick
said:
|
... I think a little perspective is needed too, we played Blackburn not Burton Albion. We can't win every week, it just doesn't happen. Hurt as it does, it's just football. Supporting this club as I have done for over 25 years, this is a good as it been since 1983, trust me  |
Ammar
said:
 |
... eoin1981, its not just about playing the formation but as Viva has said you play a formation to the personnel you have...and yes if we can win at anfield with only 32% of posession what does that tell you ? how many clubs in the premiership will go to anfield and dominate possesion ? When downing is fit where do you think he'll play in a 4-4-2 ? I personnaly would like to see mon succeed as i for one don't want my club changing managers on a regualr basis and it becoming a circus. Some of the buys he has bought has been quite decent. I just think he is flawed in his tatics but will learn as is every manager in the premiership...look at the Fat Spanish Waiter constantly rotating last few seasons but this season he has changed... We can only hope....!!!! Damian nice article and spot one.... |
Adrian Kilgallon
said:
|
... Gilo its not just aout making mistakes his whole philospy on football is from a by gone era. He has been left behind. It happens to managers. It happened to Clough. |
Damian
said:
|
... VillaNick I'm going to guess we are of similar ages and while I can agree, to an extent that the perception is as you say, I'd say we've had it better in the past 25 years. Ellis missed the boat with us and as far as I can see now Lerner is missing the boat too. But in those 25 years you talk about we won silverware and got to an FA Cup final. |
Carl Main
said:
 |
... I just want to grab MON and frantically shake him shouting 'FOUR FIVE ONE, FOUR FIVE ONE...BEYE IS SAT ON THE BENCH, HE PLAYS RIGHT BACK, FOUR FIVE ONE, FOUR FIVE ONE'.........he makes me mad! |
kaptabs
said:
|
...I just want to grab MON and frantically shake him shouting 'FOUR FIVE ONE, FOUR FIVE ONE...BEYE IS SAT ON THE BENCH, HE PLAYS RIGHT BACK, FOUR FIVE ONE, FOUR FIVE ONE'.........he makes me mad! We all do mate, Wouldn't make any difference though, he would just take off his glasses clamly then order a wrestling match. Hokey has already tried it!! |
Adrian Kilgallon
said:
|
... Villanick how about 93? That was a great year Here's a clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8132lF0-Wnw Now just tell me we have played anything close to this type of football under MON? |
keith
said:
 |
... i just realised that you must be right about formation but then i undertand why mon calls you championship managers. with your theory playing 4 4 2 against 4 5 1 means that midfield gets overun so why has no one been forward thinking enough to play 2 7 1 then in theory we will piss every game |
john C
said:
 |
... The qualities of the players decides the formation. MON wants to play with two wide players Young and Milner. That puts the two central midfield players under pressure, as most teams pack the central midfield. So if you keep Young and Milner in the team together you have to play three central midfielders in all games. The most experienced three are Petrov,Reo Coker and Sidwell. They need to play together regularly to learn who holds and which one gets forward to support the striker in different situations.When any of these three are injured or suspended Delph or Gardner can be brought in. Against the top teams i would play 451. Agbonlahor is by far the best striker in this situation. As a back four I would pick Young, Collins, Cellular and Warnock. Against the weaker teams I would play 352. Cellular Dunne and Collins as the back three, with Carew or Heskey partnering Agbonlahor. |
Giles Young
said:
|
... I like Bernd Schuster, Gus Hiddink and Robert Mancini. Now all we have to do is offer them a contract that was better than their previous one! I think we can afford Big Ron and he is due for a comeback ...  I think MON has old fashioned principles but I struggle to think how he has consistently managed top 6 with Villa if he is that out of touch ... |
Dave
said:
|
... I say 1-8-1 is the way forward. Come on MON, what is wrong with you, are you completely blind. How can you not see 1-8-1 will give our midfield the edge. If you don't do exactly what I think you should be sacked. MON OUT |
paul mclafferty
said:
 |
... one loss in seven..... fickle fickle fickle i said in anther post blackburn were better than everyone on here gave them credit for and i also said we are due to lose one after such a good run, i also said every premier team are good enough to beat anyone on their day, because thats football and most of the people on here know f.a and are fickle. formation formation formation |
Adrian Kilgallon
said:
|
... Gilo im not talking about priciples but rather his philoshpy on football. He has no respect for skill, passing or comfort on the ball but instead puts more on hard work and phyisque(Heskey). That is something from a diffenet era of football. This formation discussion is just ignring the fact that we are not good enough on the ball all over the park. |
keith
said:
|
... ak This formation discussion is just ignring the fact that we are not good enough on the ball all over the park. spot on and till we get cl it never will be |
Dave
said:
|
...dubai dave No pal, modern football is all about midfield. You clearly are living in the 1720s if you think you can play the progressive, contemporary game without 8 in the middle. |
Adrian Kilgallon
said:
|
... john C i think you hit on something there. Is the day of playing 2 out and out wingers in the PL gone? |
Chazvilla
said:
 |
... Fickle pretty much sums up most of you If Villa won yesterday it would have been our best start to our season in 70 odd years!! Sometimes the other team does win you know |
Dave
said:
|
... Brad Defence: Collins Midfield:Milner - Albrighton - Delph - Reo Coker - Petrov - Gardner-Downing - Young Up Front:Gabby Modern football.... |
James
said:
 |
... Right, I agree with most of your post Damian, but we need to put a stop to one or two things that are building here and are simply wrong. 1. Coker as the saviour of Villa. (He's solid but he wouldn't have changed that game had he been brought on, formation would) 2. Playing Coker would put club before personal problems. Nonsense. You don't allow players who spit their dummies out and think they are bigger than the club straight back in. If you can fight with the manager and nothing happens, they'd all be at it. Bad game, bad formation, bad result. But Coker is no midfield maestro and you don't play naughty boys. |
Ammar
said:
|
... Nanwasafan said: ... 2. Playing Coker would put club before personal problems. Nonsense. You don't allow players who spit their dummies out and think they are bigger than the club straight back in. If you can fight with the manager and nothing happens, they'd all be at it. so why was he even in the squad ? |
Giles Young
said:
|
... Keithj - The responsibility begins and ends with MON. If he does not retain order over 25+ egos he would not be around for very long and the players, on the whole, appear to have healthy respect for him. Ak_27 - I don't think he has concentrated entirely on power. He has also signed Young and Milner, brought Gabby along. Albrighton is also looking good for the future so there is an element of flair and pace in there. But they obviously have to perform. We could use a playmaker, no doubt, but they may be a little more difficult to come by than we know ... |
PaulMcGrathsGoneAWOL
said:
 |
... Firstly its a disapointing result, and we should have put them to bed after going one up so early but lets reel back for a minute. We were away from home and we played badly, but I dont think playing 451 would have made much difference, they hurt us with long balls. We had possestion around their area but couldnt cut through. All you idiots that want MON gone, who are you going to replace him with? Paul Hart? Some unproven guy from Peterborough or Leeds or anyone down there? Lets get real, we have a stubborn manager who likes things done his way. Most of the time that works but sometimes its his downfall, sounds a bit like SAF to me. I like what MON has done to our club and Id rather have him than any of the other realistic managers we could have. What do you want DOL back?? |
VillaNick
said:
|
... Damien & ak_27 I am in my mid 30's and I acknowledge we won silverware in the 90's & played some better football than we are now. However, I always had a feeling we were over-acheiving under Gregory, Little and even Big Ron. We look solid now in virtually every position. Only 2 players who played on Saturday were (not current or past) full internationals, our bench also had 4 or 5 internationals on it. Years back we would be lucky to have 3 or 4 internationals playing in our team, perhaps showing a slight lack of funding and ambition - Eliis obviously. In a nutshell, the Premier league is much stonger now, you can't get away with too many average players these days, I feel we got a way with it as did some other club, back in the day! |
JasonTitterton
said:
 |
... Does anyone realize that had we won yesterday, it would have been aston villa's best start to a league campaign in 79 years. 79 years people!!!?? Yes Martin may have got some things wrong yesterday, but for christ sakes keep your eyes on the prize. The reo-coker situation is hardly your average one, and delph had a cracker midweek against cardiff - hardly surprising that he was in line for a recall. I thought he played very well for the record, taking him off for heskey was the turning point IMO. A relatively ugly game, 1 a piece going into the last 15 mins with rovers down to 10 men, you'd fancy us to go on and nick it. It didn't happen, and they actually snatched one at the other end. These things happen in football at this level, the margins are so small, so fine, that this can happen. 8 times out of 10 we would have gone on to win that game yesterday, well this happened to be one of the 2 times we didn't. Bitter pill to swallow i agree, but for people to be calling for MON's head!!??? C'mon guys. |
greg1982
said:
 |
... Our best two players by a distance are wingers but this empties MID field. And would you believe the player who will be become our third best player, and who is coming in soon… is another winger! Only on planet Martin. The idea of playing two wide players, two up front and a boy in midfield, which failed so disastrously in the opening game, shows the measure of O’Neill. But good post Damian. For a moment I thought you were going to be sucked into the hype. |
matt26may1982
said:
 |
... Wot excuse is mon gonna come out with now! Loads of you bitch about ppl moaning when we lose but thats cos they always new he was tactically inept. What manager would buy a player with broken foot out for 6 months MON. What manager would revert back to 442 when 451 aint broke at all MON. What manager would start heskey when carew is 10 times more dangerous and more in form MON. What manager would be a stubbern t**t and be so unprofessional as to leave out an effective player because of an argument!!! Only MON. He has bought players and still 3 years on we aint right. |
Mike Carter
said:
|
... It's getting tense here, time for an emergency joke... What cheese can you use to hide a horse? ... MASCARPONE!!! |
Damian
said:
|
... holteend paul & Chazvilla i dont think it is fickle. i think that is the easy thing to say and in this case not the right thing to say most people and this is the thing that is so baffling, sort of knew, after o'neill announced the team yesterday, that we'd need a performance of the season to get the result sure, 442 got the result against pompey at villa park and for those that say 'had we won yesterday it would have been our best start in 70 years' well pompey have had the worst ever start start to the premier league and something like the first start in top flight for 80 odd years - the reserve side woudl beat pompey some questions; why change something that has worked and why, if as o'neill said about reo-coker, everything was forgotten last monday, was he not playing - has he suddenly become not good enough? it isn't fickle, it is actually just very disappointing that o'neill is now in his 4th season and he hasn't figured it out, despite the facts showing we pass better and more with 5 in midfield and win more, that he still persists with something the better teams don't even persist with if we didn't know why this was happening, people wouldn't call it fickle and had that muppet o'leary never used the word, then nobody else would. the irony is, nobody here will credit o'leary with anything really positive during his time at villa but apparently, he was spot on about fickle fans. well, i'll say now, it isn't fickle, it's passion and there is a huge difference |
Nigel
said:
 |
... Give me Lampard and Gerrard and maybe I would consider us playing 442. The point is that some people who deny the advantage of playing 451/433 seem to not grasp that we simply do not have the players with the ability to play 442. However, we have some very good players to play 451/433 very effectively. MON baffles me for someone so intelligent. |
Mike Carter
said:
|
... I have to correct myself from earlier as well, United also play 4-4-2, and in the most traditional sense possible. |
peter haworth
said:
 |
... 100% agree Damien. What upsets me with MON is that I cannot understand his tatical thinking.Everybody on here must have thought when the team was announced that we were going to lose this game.The 2nd half of last season was the same, playing players out of position.Now that we have a decent squad I thought those days were gone,how wrong was I.!!!! Listening to Tony Cotte talking on SKY about the NRC situation he said that MON always like to play mind games with certain players.That is all well and good but when it effects results we as Villa fans have to voice our concerns when 3 points were given away yesterday by keepng NRC on the bench as some sort of " "I will teach you a lesson".Something that Cloughie and other managers of the 70!s and 80!s would employ.We all saw last season what happened to Carew and Shorey when they fell out of favour. Hopefully,MON has learnt a lesson from the defeats by Wigan and Blackburn,the display against Cardiff and play Gabby upfront with a five man midfield that becomes 433 and play NRC if he has accepted his apology.If not then say so and sell him!! |
James
said:
|
...mon 4-5-1 Just to piss him off further and show who the boss is? |
Damian
said:
|
... vivavilla can you hand on heart say that rooney and berbatov play, in the most traditional sense possible, the role of two strikers in a 442 i watched the united stoke game from yesterday this morning and i can tell you, hand on heart, they don't, but that really is just my opinion but if you look at the stats from yesterday. carew and gabby combined made 22 passes, 15 successful and 7 failed - not all but mostly all quite high up the pitch rooney and berbatov, dropping really quite deep the way they do made a combined total of 57 passes, 44 successful and 13 failed they might play with 2 recognised strikers but i really wouldn't say wayne rooney is an out and out striker, not when he is coming so deep to pick up the ball and play the ball an interesting stat from yesterday also - rooney played more successful passes in his own half than john carew had all game - i think that just goes to show how deep he plays and the benefit for us playing 451 |
Damian
said:
|
... Stennett You coudl always get yourslef a desktop wallpaper: http://www.astonvillawallpaper...mation-451 on this 451 thing also, i'm not saying you have to rigidly play 451, i'm saying that there is a mentality to playing 451 that changes how the whole team plays when you have 3 men in the middle it makes a huge difference and as we saw against blues, we played 451 for the most of the game apart from the 10 minutes it took carew to score but as soon as he did, it was 451 again .. the mind set is different and those three players we have in the team make a difference |
Ammar
said:
|
... Nanwasafan, okay so its to teach him a lesson...so we were only playing with 6 subs yesterday ? he was only on the subs bench as a lesson has he not done that most of this and last season ? |
Adrian Kilgallon
said:
|
... Lads liverpool(Arsenal play 2, Utd play 2 and Chelsea play 2) are the only team that don't play with 2 strikers up front. It doesn't matter if one drops back on occasion to get the ball they still are playing a type of 442. We do not have a striker comfortable enough on the floor to do this job so maybe that is what we should be looking at more then the formation itself. So again we should be questioning the personel we have at the club more then the formations that have to be played to over come limitations of the players we have. The fact is MON has bought a load of hard workers with very little skill and ability on the ball. |
Adrian Kilgallon
said:
|
... VillaNick i can think of at least 2 or 3 villa teams over the last 15 years that would wipe the floor with this current team. |
Ammar
said:
|
... ak_27 said, arsenal have not played a traditional 4-4-2 for years not sure were you have got that from. Nor have chealsea apart from this season...United are the only ones but we all know rooney is not your traditional striker... |
Adrian Kilgallon
said:
|
... mon 4-5-1 i never said that at all. I stated that Arsenal, Utd and Chelsea all play 442 with 2 strikers up top with one on occassion dropping deep to help the attacks start by being able to take the ball to feet and start the next stage of the attack. Carew, Heskey and Gabby are just not good at doing that(due to a lack of ability on the floor). Just watch the link i put above and watch how Yorke and especially Saunders linked up brailliantly with the midfield. |
Damian
said:
|
... mon 4-5-1 i think, if reo-coker was good enough at the start of the season and as martin o'neill said, it was all forgotten last monday, then he should have played. has delph suddenly become a better player? i cant see why reo-coker was left out of the team other than o'neill having a strop i know it sounds wide of the mark but it is either not all forgotten or o'neill is telling fibs |
Mike Carter
said:
|
... Damian, For me, it's a traditional 4-4-2. Rooney may play deep, but that's only because he has the ability too. He's becoming just about the most complete striker in world football for my money, becoming top class at just about everything you ask him to do. He can track back, so he does. Gabby and Carew can't, so neither of them do. Just because Rooney falls back that does not mean he isn't an out-and-out striker, something I firml believe he is now that Ronaldo has left. That's exactly why 4-4-2 works for United and not for us, personnel. |
Damian
said:
|
... vivavilla okay - so it is fair to say then that when rooney does drop back to help the midfield (granted he doesn't do it defensively) it is almost as if united are playing 451 i agree it is about personnel more than anything and in that exact same breath nobody can say we have the personnel to play 442 and why for the love of god why o'neill cant see that baffles me - especially when he looks at the results from this season one of the things for me is possession and passing and we do more and have more when we play 5 in the middle but it is sort of forced and isn't done because o'neill is trying to get them to play that way and that was one of the things i wanted to see develop this season and it isn't o'neill has had a long time now to get them to play better football and while we are seeing fulham and roy hodgson achieve that .. we are not with o'neill and at the same time he isn't getting the money to go out and buy these top class players i cant see on what front we are actually going to really kick on |
Michael panizza
said:
 |
... Had it with MON's tactics, if you can call that mish mash of ideas 'tactics'. I'll always like the bloke but as a manager he's done far too many odd things to trust him any further..442, 451, 2 yrs to buy a right back, buying players only to use them in all sorts of positions bar the one in which they tend to perform at their best, Emile Heskey, no idea who plays abroad..I'm sick of it. Had it, bring in new ideas. |
Damian
said:
|
... Monkeywrench You could argue that a club like Aston Villa, with the money available to any manager, should be able to make top six on a regular basis and actually, barring a few mishaps and a few seasons where we've flirted with it, we generally have since the Premier League began ... so maybe, new ideas are needed but i still think, despite the clear as day errors that o'neill is making, that he needs more time to get it right we need to give him a proper opportunity and who knows, we could all end up with egg on our face if he does get it right, unfortunately the chances of him getting it right reduce after every match because if we dont finish in the top 6 this season some will call for his head and if we don't spend properly next summer, having not finished in the top 6 then even more will be calling for his head when come october next year we are not where we should be, or where aston villa football club should be |
madladdy
said:
 |
... God this 451 vs 442 is getting boring. Out of the top4 only Liverpool play with 1 striker.. its just the other teams, inc Spurs have strikers who are comfortable on the ball and act as a link between midfield and essentially are a playmaker too.. It's not JUST the formation, its the players you have too. Personally I'd play 451 too.. Gaby wide right, Milner behind Carew with Petrov, Delph or whoever holding... but you know what I'm not going to sulk and throw a fit because the manager doesn't agree with me.. jesus how often does a manager play the EXACT same formation & squad YOU want? Yet every time we loose its entirely down to that? If we played 451 would we win EVERY game then? Of course not and it's just childlish and overly simplistic to pretend it is. Or that if we play 451 we'll naturally beat 'teams like' Blackburn etc as a matter of course. We played poorly but lost yesterday to long ball tactics which largely missed out the midfield and a poor penalty decision. (Having your foot that high next to a player is dangerous play. His foot flying high meant Dunne couldn't safely challenge for the ball so its a free kick to us and a yellow card to the striker. Dunne was flinching away from been kicked in the face more than anything.) Also when did Reo *JOKER* suddenly become our saviour? Most fans have been saying for the last 3 years he was a waste of money and now all of a sudden he's our best player? Also MON played Delph/Petrov against Wigan! He does the same again and it's all a big conspiracy, or MON cares more for himself than the team/club.. honestly! Out of interest what do you think would happen if Rooney 'fought with' Fergie or Capello? |
Michael panizza
said:
|
... Damian I agree, it's a shame that pressure can affect the work of a manager so much but it's a long standing problem in all sorts of leagues, even the minor ones. I would love to end up with eggs on my face because it'd mean MON has got it right - and I'd be the 1st to be delighted if he did because I truly respect and like the guy. I've patiently observed his work over the past 4 seasons and if on one side I'm proud of the fact he's built a young side full of British players, on the other I accept that in modern football you either inject some foreign quality into the mix or you end up coming to a standstill. Unless you can perhaps put together the quality of the England team, which at Villa we cannot do. It's the basic mistakes which make me think we've come to the end of the road with O'Neill: the tinkering with player's roles, the stubborn ignoring foreign players and most of all the awful determination to ensure his pal Heskey gets in the plane to South Africa, yesterday being the most evident of attempts to involve the 'striker'. It's clear to me that even MON has realised we have better forwards in the squad that Heskey and, as a result, the former Wigan man may not start many games unless the likes of Carew and Gabby get injured. But to bring him on in place of a midfielder when we already have 2 forwards on the pitch? To play him on the left? It's decisions like those that make me question MON's sanity, let alone his managerial skills. Perhaps he needs more time but I fear - as you said yourself - that it's time fans are not prepared to give him anymore if we don't at least end in the top 6 this season too. |
Ammar
said:
|
... Damian, i agree with what your saying but why do we need to choose between NRC & Delph ? Are they not different type of players and if we were playing 5 in the middle then can petrov,nrc,delph play at the same time ? than at least were are playing to our strengths. Also one other point in general why can carew not play in a 4-5-1 ? he has all the attributes required for that role and alternate with gabby...leave heaskey as a last resort.. |
Guner
said:
 |
... Good afternoon all. I'm a long-time reader and also who's sitting at fourth place in the Fantasy League. I want to say something. I agree with most, including 4-5-1 formation, but the problem is not Four Four Two, it's how MON approach it. I've just watched the full match of Wigan against Chelsea. And if some watched the game, I suppose they'll agree with me that we must play like that Wigan side. It's not about formation, nor the players. It's about the length between Gabby (or the one who's playing as striker) and Dunne, which's probably 60-70 metres. That's why we're so ineffective while playing with 2 holding midfielders. Wigan started the game without their one and only playmaker, Jordi Gomez, but they always had the ball and they controlled the whole game. They made pressure with 4 or five players in the final third so the length between the first and last player got longer and Chelsea had to play more direct. I mean, they forced them to play fast and direct, not long, but that's not the game in which Chelsea successful. In most matches, with the Ballack-Lampard-Mikel-Essien midfield (it's not diamond, it's 4-1-2-1-2) they played fast but not direct, short and so they succeed to put eleven man into opposition's half and keep attacking fluently. I get optimistic everytime Collins and Dunne make some simple good passes in our half, that's when we have the ball, keep possesion, and do what we should do -mixing long balls and simple passes-. Have a look at the Pompey game's first half, Sidwell and Petrov were definitely effective. Our midfield wasn't all over theirs, but that's not the case, our midfield made passes, help the attacks a bit and we looked like a team. Moving like a team. But when we get the lead and especially in the second halves, we always try long balls in such a panic. I don't know why. We just cant put two passes together. That's awkward. I don't believe it's about fitness, but maybe it can be called losing concentration. When we keep possesion, we get rebounds so we keep attacking and attacking and it's a good thing. Everyone has doubts over MON. So do I. But we just should keep supporting the team and do not harm them. Discussing is good but sometimes hurtful. Remember last year. Booing your own players is disgusting, really, disgusting. I dont want to see my team in that situation again. And I also find disgusting making a shortlist. To the guys, who wrote Guus Hiddink, c'mon do you really believe he'll accept the job? Making a U-turn after every single defeat tells me that there's very little confidence in MON. Being such negative is much more worse for the team than the O'Neill fact. See Liverpool and Benitez case. |
Aaron Wilson
said:
 |
... Captain Petrov - "Martin, i know you feel compelled to play 4-4-2 but 4-5-1 works every time... why not just stick to it?" MON - "Dont you think i know that? I would play 4-5-1 week in week out but i need to do it my way, or else the fans will look smarter me". C |
david
said:
 |
... As predicted a couple of days ago it wouldn't matter how many games in a row we'd won, as soon as we lost one, the pretend fans who'd been silent for weeks would slither out from under their stones and be gleefuly back on here trying to cause trouble. |
david
said:
|
... Damian has consistently banged the 451 drum even when we've been winning. Ak27 has similarly voiced his doubts about MoN. Whether you agree with their views or not you can't accuse them of being fickle. The attitude of some of the other low lifes on here yesterday and today is frankly laughable though. What sort of fan is it who only feels motivated to come on here and gleefully throw around their criticism when Villa lose? |
Hadi
said:
 |
... O Neil is a very good manager, but hes not complete, tactically hes not very strong. The majortiy have realized that by now. I think he can become a great manager if he brings in the right consultant, someone that can teach the players tactics and how to accustom themselves against certain opposition. Grit and determination is necassary in the premiership, but the team needs some guile and creativity. Petrov, young, milner, carew, these are sound technical players, if only we had zola or someone like that who can mentor them and O Neil could stick to what hes good at, doin the team talks and bein the leader with the vision. Thats my 2 cents worth. |
Kaptabs
said:
|
... This argument is so bloody moot. People can moan about the doomsayers and those that crawl out from under their stones yadayadyada FACT, playing 4-5-1 for our current crop works, Fact, playing 4-4-2 doesn't Why is it so hard to understand. Only ONE man makes the decision on match day fair enough, But nearly all of us fans can see what MON refuses How long should we put up with that And how long do we have to put up with the blind fans who say "Trust in MON" You know, that guy who throws away points for his own ego. Dear god its frustrating. Supporting your team no matter waht is admirable, but dont do it because you feel you need to. There is an obvious pattern here and anyone who chooses not to see it keeps accepting the fact that we wont challenge for anything when we have a real god damn chance of doing just that. FFS. |
david
said:
|
... Damian and others...Im a fan of Reo Coker too and would have liked to see him play, but I wouldn't double guess MoN on this one. I agree with Nan how important it is that MoN really reinforces that he is the boss. Once a manager loses authority then the team is lost and results will quickly suffer. If MoN adjudged that another game on the bench was needed I'll back him all the way. Even if it cost us the match yesterday, which I don't think it did, (a crap refereeing decision did that)I'd still leave it to the man who is with the players on a regular basis to make the call on when Reo should play again. |
david
said:
|
... Kaptabs. 451 good, 442 bad is not a fact, it's an opinion. I too believe that there is a good case to be made for it but it is not the be all and end all. If you were motivated to come on here and comment even when Villa were winning you'd have seen that the biggest fan of 451 (i.e. Damian) accepts that there are times when 442 is the better formation for Villa to play. |
Ammar
said:
|
... Hadi said: ... O Neil is a very good manager, but hes not complete, tactically hes not very strong. The majortiy have realized that by now. totally agree he is a good manager but either needs to listen to the fans or get someone who is tactically aware i.e a steve clarke who can help him tactically... And all this graph about being fickle is this a buzz word i thought this is a blog to voice opinions... |
Guner
said:
|
... I'm not saying we should be behind him even if we get the 10th place. I'm trying to say that discussion & criticsm is good, damn good but booing is not. You'll say nobody has spoken about booing, and of course you're right. It's an example, I'm just afraid of seeing the team in that situation. |
James
said:
|
... Will Carew sit on the bench? MON obviously thinks he won't. Therefore 442 every now and then. Imagine the anger on here if Carew went in January. Lack of ambition, small squad, lack of faith in the manager etc. Nobody is addressing this balancing act issue. How do you keep a good squad happy when challenging Top 4? It's not just us, Spuds will see it too. Can't see Crouch waiting around on their bench. City would suffer as well, if it wasn't for the fact that most of their squad have gone there to be rich not to play football. |
FatKevs
said:
 |
... Damian only part way down the thread but how much do you earn a month or 2 £350k is a fair chunk of money for a list not even commissioned by the club |
david
said:
|
... mon 451. Opinions are fine, but if people only ever come on here to whinge when we lose and never come on here to praise their team when things go well then yes...they are fickle. I think fans like that are bad for the club, bad for morale, not really Villa fans at all and we'd be better off without them. |
FatKevs
said:
|
... Nigel was not a 1st choice with MoN so i do not know if he is being small minded or not on that. His negative tactics & fitting the team around his old freinds like Hesky is small minded. If we had a chairman that knew anything i would want our manager changed as he has been a huge dissapointment in the transfer market & his approach to the game. As long as he picks up points we cannot call for his head & he does pick up points. I had hoped MONs reputation would of lifted the club but we are just making up numbers nothing to write about |
Damian
said:
|
... FatKevs i was only throwing a wild figure out but i wouldn't be surprised if it was more than that .. and ultimately it isn't really much to pay and in reality, if the club wanted a new manager they could put a list together of 20 managers names of who could take aston villa to the next level the thing is you can cross certain names of the list straight away i.e. sir alex ferguson, arsene wenger, probably even red rafa but names like and i'm just picking this one as a pretty good example, mourinho, should stay on the list because there would need to be a discussion and for that, if the club were to hire a firm/consultant/agency to do that, it would cost money and not five or six grand but 50 or 60 or even more and then when you consider you might have a few names on that list and its going to take time but there are so many variables and things to consider and with nobody at the club (apart from the manager) with a background in the industry - they'd likely hire someone to do this anyway |
Kaptabs
said:
|
...mon 451. Opinions are fine, but if people only ever come on here to whinge when we lose and never come on here to praise their team when things go well then yes...they are fickle. I think fans like that are bad for the club, bad for morale, not really Villa fans at all and we'd be better off without them. Robbo, for the record I used to be a big poster on here. A move to OZ (Where it is now 3:00 am but i still care enough to post) took a little bit of my time away. However, i agree with you 4-5-1 does not mean we will win the league but i think the majority want us can see we play bettr that way but MON is too stubborn with his affection for certain individuals an his dislike for others to put them teamm first. But, and i think its my right, after supporting the C and B for twenty three years now, to know we have the best chance of achieving something and watch it get blown away but a managers ego (Not too unline a certain chairmans ego i might add) is very frustrating. We have seen since Jan 2009 that this 4-4-2 nonsense doesn't work, why persost with the godamn thing when we have a striker on fire and a formation that plays to everyones strength?? |
FatKevs
said:
|
... Most will not like this, but respect to Karren Brady She has attacked Blues fans for singing “disgusting” chants about the mum Gabby Agbonlahor at last weekend’s derby. I hope our fans show her the same respect |
greg1982
said:
|
... R0bb0 The problem is when it’s not 451 we don’t play 442. Players dictate formation and it’s more like 424. Two up front and two hugging the touchline leaves just to in the ‘middle’. When one is a boy, albeit a great one for the future, we get steamrollered. It is unbelievable he reverted to this again after the debacle against Wigan. Completely unbelievable. |
Ammar
said:
|
... r0bb0 said: ... mon 451. Opinions are fine, but if people only ever come on here to whinge when we lose and never come on here to praise their team your right if people do come on here just to moan then maybe there not real fans. however people moaning can also show they care and it hurts. What really hurts was not the result but just the way things conspired yesterday and some of the decisions made by our manager did not make much sense which ever angle you look at it.... i.e playing players out of position cueller instead of beye...heskey for delph...nrc in the squad but not even coming on...bizzare to say the least... I for one think we do now have a quality squad and we have made some quality signings dunne,collins,downing,warnock,delph also taking into account we have young,milner,petrov,carew,gabby,cueller it is a bright future as long as we use our tools in the right way... |
Michael panizza
said:
|
... r0bb0 - no need to dust off the usual indignation, please. People have a right to voice concern, especially when the defeat comes as a result of obvious, bizarre mistakes on the manager's part. Nobody's booing here, but it's undeniable that the baffling list of decisions made by MON since he took over is getting longer season by season and it's not doing us any good. Yesterday Delph should have been replaced by another type of player and MON decided not to do it to make a point. And it is possible that that stubborn decision costed us the game, ref's mistake or not. Had we replaced Barry adequately we may not have had to rely on either an inexperienced if classy kid or a player with disciplinary issues because of Sidwell's abscence, another pearl of poor planning in the ever-growing list of odd decisions on MON's part. |
Adrian Kilgallon
said:
|
... A lot of people on here are saying that we all know MON is not good tactically but he still a good manager. So what exactly are his strengths that make him a so called top manager? Transfers? Coaching? Motivating? I would give him motivating and thats it. Is that enough to move us on as a club? |
david
said:
|
... I have my own doubts about MoN tactics at times but I don't agree with the view that his signings are poor. Remember how difficult Hughes found it to attract the players he wanted even with unlimited money for transfer fees and wages. Remember also that MoN has signed just about all of our current squad and even some of his most strident critics believe that we now have good players, but question how he is using them. |
Nigel
said:
|
... ak_47, I have to say that's a very good point you raise. I'm not calling for MON's head, just hoping and praying he see's the light. It's getting ridiculous now. Please can we somehow get an opinion poll on the system etc, and get it posted to him? |
pete
said:
|
... r0bb0 thats the problem he doesent know how to use them.why cueller at rb ,why the young kid delph and not reo or gardner.and why not 451. |
john C
said:
|
... MON has spent about £75 million net trying to reinforce the villa. It would more likely take £200 million to break into the champions league places. The top players will not join clubs outside the champions league, unless they are compensated in their wage packets. What we have to do is make best use of the players we have got. MON introduced the 451 after CAREW got injured last year and it produced the best run of results sinvc 1898. I dont blame him for bringing in Heskey, because Agbonlahor was feeling the pressure of playing up front on his own for all those games. But the change to 442 produced 2 wins in the next 18 games. Its not an opinion that 451 suits this group of players the best, its a fact. |
david
said:
|
... no 10. Cuellar has played at right back a fair bit now and I think there is a case to be made for him being more solid than Beye in that position. I do believe that Beye gives us a bit more going forward but I imagine that when we only have 4 in the middle MoN thinks that we need the strongest defenders we can have. The use of Delph is a dificult one. Delph seems to have the potential to be great one day and if MoN never plays him people will be on his back for not giving the lad the chance to develop. Although I question some of his tactical decisions I reckon those two player decisions demonstrate just how diffcult the job of a manager is. It's fair enough to question any individual decision but I reckon that any of us should be wary of pretending that we always know better than him. |
Michael panizza
said:
|
... And why no knowledge of the foreign transfer market? Is it just wanting to stick with the tried and trusted (which will never be enough) or simply not being prepared? |
david
said:
|
... john c. Your comment about games won last year using 451 and 442 look to show incontrovertibly that 451 is the best formation. It's always hard to prove cause and effect though. We've yet to win a game in March under MoN (not just last year when we switched from 451 to 442)and it may be down to tiredness of a thin squad. Last year of course we also lost Laursen and that seemed to knock the stuffing out of the players. You may well be right about 451 being the best formation for this group of players but it's not a totally proven fact. |
Ammar
said:
|
... r0bb0 said: fair enough to question any individual decision but I reckon that any of us should be wary of pretending that we always know better than him. yep your right we do not pretend we know better than mon but he could at least explain some of his decisions than at least we can shut up and say he is doing it his way...he at least owes us that don't you think... |
john C
said:
|
... This season playing Delph and Petrov in 442 we have lost against Wigan and Backburn, hardly top teams.Playing 451 against Liverpool, Fulham and Blues we won. We beat Portsmouth wlth 442, but played Sidwell with Petrov.Portsmouth are in dire form. Sidwell is a much stronger player physically than Delph, who is still developing.How much more evidence do you need over the best formation? We have made a reasonable start, but have only played one of the stronger teams up to now. Looking at the next two games Man City and Chelsea we need to put out our strongest formation. 451 does not guarantee success, but it suits these players best |
Lewis
said:
 |
... Fatkevs of course we owe her respect I mean sllllllllllaaaaaaaaaagggggggg sorry that slipped I mean I betshes a nice ssslllllaaaagggggg oh I mean person sorry that's the tourettes Sllllaaaaggggggggggg |
pete
said:
|
... anybody in the right mined should know you cant put a 19 year old league 1 player staight into a prem midfield.mon his a mad man |
bring back john gregory
said:
 |
... i blame mon for our defeat,this stubborn man says he holds no grudges but he clearly does nrc should of been the first name on the team sheet  |
James
said:
|
... So, many of you one here are claiming that MON left Coker out of the team because he is stubborn? He is risking his income and that of his family. He is jeopardising his own credibility as a manager. He is encouraging the wrath of the fans and players of a proud football club. He is mesing with other people's careers. He is consciously undermining his teams ability to win games. This is what you are claiming. No wonder you want him sacked. |
john C
said:
|
... I think Delph needs to be brought gradually into the a midfield three. Probably in the long term at Petrov's expense. Only playing with one striker means that the central midfielders need to be box to box players. I doubt whether Petrov has the energy for that. On the other hand I cant see Reo Coker lasting past the January transfer window after recent events. |
Dave1111
said:
 |
... some Villa fans really do my head in one bad result doesn't mean we're going to f*** up our season yes we should be beating teams like Blackburn. Were just going to have to pick ourselves up and go flying into the next two games which we CAN win both at home. Get behind the lads and stop jumping on their backs when we play a poor game. Or actually get to a game and watch the team week in week out instead of looking for the result of watching MOTD. UP THE VILLA!!!!!! |
Steve Badger
said:
 |
...MON has spent about £75 million net trying to reinforce the villa. It would more likely take £200 million to break into the champions league places. This is sense, people, imo. We're as close as anyone to breaking the top 4. I'm not going into a discussion about who could do a better job, because there is no better option who would come to us. Hiddinck? He knocked back Chelski. Mourinho? We're simply not big enough. Sven? Do me a favour, he's just crap, which is why he's gone where exactly? MON, even with his eccentricities is the man for us for now, imo. (battens down the hatches ) |
stuper
said:
 |
... Why not playing 4-6-0, well at least we'll get a draw. Better still, we can always play 5-5-0, any team play like this ? |
Kaptabs
said:
|
...This is sense, people, imo. Badger i note that you dont knock my suggestion of Bernd Shcuster (Serious) or Big Ron (Joke). Maybe you save your crap for cannon fodder rather than sensibility. Reduce the size of your head mate. |
Richard
said:
 |
...I'm not turning on O'Neill but....... if he can't get his head around this, then I don't care if he walks and I don't care if he is pushed I like what you did there Damian, cover your bases. |
villan from ausie
said:
 |
... Gus hidinck wants to come back to prem lge i like what he did for chelski he would be the best choice by far for me |
Damian
said:
|
... Ghosthunter It's almost as if I've just given up on O'Neill. I want it to work but I think I might be joining the ranks of the 'he's taken us as far as he can brigade'. Badger Yes, you'll need to spend more to break into the Champions League - which then begs the question; does our owner really want that? I mean, it hasn't just become £200mn it was that when he took over. As for Mourinho - only one person can write off Mourinnho and that is Mourinho - because none of us know his frame of mind or what type of challenge he wants next which is why I said you'd need a discussion. What was it General PR said; something about aiming for the best or something like that. I've taken away Sir Alex and Arsene Wenger and maybe Red Rafa - but not the others and none of us actually know how much money Lerner would be willing to make available for say Mourinho either, so how can he be written off? |
Kaptabs
said:
|
... Damian You realise my comments make far more sense than some of your regulars yet you refuse to acknowledge me right............ Just sayin....... |
Nosense!
said:
 |
... Listen to you, one loss and again you're calling for MON's head, we win and and you still pick faults, get a life look at chelsea they lost, look at man u they lost oh and so have liverpool and arsenal...... seriously it happens |
Damian
said:
|
... Kaptabs I don't refuse to acknowledge anyone, but now, I'm going to have to read all your comments on this page ... As for your your comments making more sense, that is your opinion. I'm sure you'll also have one on the post that is about to go up .. |
Keith
said:
 |
... Pathetic, absolutely pathetic. Talking about replacing MON, you lot deserve to win f**k all. Pathetic! |
ruffy
said:
 |
... Firstly I think its overly hard to kick up a stink when we've had what basically amounts to a good start to the season. However I have to agree with you on formation. I would say though that you are being fundamentally unrealistic if you think we are good enough to be top 4 side this season. We need to realise that 6th or 7th is where we should finish, below that is under performing, above that is over achieving. The team believe that we expect them to challenge top4 and although I'm a believer in setting big targets, I'm not sure that that is a good one. It puts a downer on the hole club and fans start booing just because we are 6th or 7th, which is our level right now, and not in the top four. We should be giving them a match dont get me wrong, but we'll get to the stage where United will come to Villa park and beat us and them the fans will boo. Ridiculous. I think our target should be more pts than last year and a trophy. That we CAN achieve. (with a little luck in the Cups of course!) |
GPalmer
said:
 |
... Oh dear, one narrow defeat and out come the knives! Yes, Delph was never going to have an effective game against an Allardyce side and NRC would've probably fared better, but formation wouldn't have counted for alot against Blackburn - they hoof it and bypass your midfield regardless of how many you've got playing there. Disappointing result but I'd have been happy with a draw, which we would've got if not for a bit of bad luck at the end (which we were probably due). |
Kaptabs
said:
|
...Firstly I think its overly hard to kick up a stink when we've had what basically amounts to a good start to the season. Whilst this doesnt address MON's clear limitations, this is by FAR the BEST post in this thread. |
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